Q. possessive pronouns grammar.

Q. possessive pronouns grammar.

Quenya expresses possession with suffixes. For ordinary nouns, Quenya uses the possessive noun case -va, but possessive pronouns have their own set of suffixes. For the most part, the possessive suffixes are the same as the long subject suffix, with the e changed to a: -nye “I” vs. -nya “my”. Most Neo-Quenya writers use a possessive paradigm similar to the one presented on VT49/16 from the late 1960s. For the most part this is:

Subject Possessive
First Person Singular -n(ye) -nya “my”
Second Person Singular -t(ye) -tya “your (familiar)”
Second Person Singular -l(ye) -lya “your (polite)”
Third Person Singular -s -rya “his, her, its”
First Person Plural (inclusive) -lve -lva “our (inclusive)”
First Person Plural (exclusive) -lme -lma “our (exclusive)”
Second Person Plural -lde -lda “your (plural)”
Third Person Plural -lte or -nte -lta or -nta “their” ¹
First Person Dual (inclusive) -nquë -nqua “your and my” ²
First Person Dual (exclusive) -mme -mma “our two (but not your)”
Second Person Dual -ste -sta “your two”
Third Person Dual -tte *-tta “their two” ³

¹ The form -lta appears on VT49/16, but the 3rd person plural possessive -nta is also attested (PE17/57), reflecting Tolkien’s ongoing vacillation between -lte and -nte.

² In the paradigm on VT49/16, Tolkien gave -ngwe/-ngwa as the 1st person dual exclusive suffixes, but in the (slightly later) Quenya Pronominal Elements (QPE) he gave the subject suffix as -(i)nque (VT49/51). It seems Tolkien decided that the -ngwe/-ngwa forms were archaic, so I’d recommend -nque/-nqua instead; -nqua is attested in an older paradigm from the late 1950s or early 1960s (PE17/57).

³ On VT49/16 he gave the 3rd person dual forms as -ste/-sta which were the same as 2nd person duals, but he marked the 3rd person duals as archaic (†). In QPE he indicated that 3rd person dual †-ste > -tte, so likely the possessive form also > -tta.

Possessive pronouns have two “dimensions of plurality”, the plurality of the possessor and the plurality of the possessed. The possessive suffixes are attached to the noun before any other suffixes, and the plurality of the possessed is indicated by the ordinary dual/plural suffixes, added to the possessive suffix as if it were a vocalic noun:

All combinations are possible:

The possessive pronoun is simply suffixed to vocalic nouns, but in the case of consonantal nouns, some kind of “joining vowel” is needed to separate the noun from the suffix. This vowel is either e or i:

We don’t have enough examples to establish a clear pattern, but I suspect the joining vowel would be the same as the “vocalic augment” used to form the emphatic pronouns, thus: *atarinta “their father” (emphatic inte), *atarelya “your father” (emphatic elye). The 3rd person singular possessive is a special case where I would suggest using -ya with consonantal nouns: see below for discussion.

3rd person singular -rya: The 3rd person singular possessive suffix -rya is a bit of a special case. Its origin is distinct from the other suffixes. It originated from an ancient suffix -syā, as Tolkien stated in several places: “ómaryo, genitive of *óma-syā ‘her voice’ (PE17/76)” and “we have in Galadriel’s Lament -rya = her < sya (PE19/102 note #102)”. Tolkien described this origin in some detail in notes having to do with omentielmo vs omentielvo from the early 1960s (PE17/130):

3 person adj. zya > rya. This caused confusion with the plural rya. It will be noted (see below) that the possessive adj. of 3 person Plural and Dual was different in formation from those of 1. 2. Plural, Dual, being formed with -ya added to the numeral indicator only. The inclusion of the latter was evidently a later elaboration. This is shown by pl. rya (not lya) — which may have been an altered form to avoid clash with 2 sg. — and by use of -ya sg. and pl. after nouns with consonantal stem as talya “his foot,” makilya “his (or their) sword.”

After the change of zya to rya in “correct” language -rya remained, but in colloquial or informal EQ [Exilic Quenya], the r was dropped in sg. (aided by the appearance of -ya e.g. in talya). Thus for má-rya-t EQ would use má-ya-t: má-rya-t would only be used where several persons each raised both their hands. The lateness of the forms with -ya after vowels is seen in the retention of the final vowels preceding: thus óma-yo “of her voice” (an old formation would > ómëo). This use of -ya only after vowels was considered “incorrect”.

There is a lot to unpack in this note. First, Tolkien indicates that 3rd person possessive suffixes originated by adding ya to (a) s in the singular and (b) numerical markers in the plural and dual. In the singular, the result was -syā > -zya > -rya for vocalic nouns, but consonantal nouns just used -ya: talya (tal-ya) “his foot”, makilya (makil-ya) “his sword”. The singular -rya form conflicted with 3rd person plural -rya from plural -r + ya, so that in Exilic Quenya the singular form -ya spread from consonantal nouns to vocalic nouns: márya “his hand” (classical) vs. máya (colloquial). This popular colloquial formation was considered “incorrect” for vocalic nouns among loremasters.

Tolkien gave a slightly different explanation in notes from the mid-1960s:

The 3rd sg. remained aberrant and gave later trouble. The full OQ forms -sjā > sya became zya and in Q. -rya. This still survived in Q. as a “correct” form, and was used in writing, especially formal or poetic. But -rya now suggested plurality, as if ya had been added to -r plural. In colloquial Q. it thus became used for the plural replacing the “archaic” -ntya, and in the sg. the r was dropped. (The continued existence of such forms as talya “his foot” assisted this.) That these forms, such as kambeya “his hand”, yulmaya “his cup”, were recent is shown by their forms: older eya, aya would have become -ëa (VT49/17).

In this new scenario, plural -rya was not of ancient origin, but rather a reinterpretation of singular -rya by association with plural -r so that it displaced older 3rd plural †-ntya. Otherwise the later developments of this new scenario remained as before: to avoid conflict, the singular -ya spread from consonantal to vocalic nouns.

A third mention of these “colloquial” 3rd person variants singular -ya and plural -rya appeared in the VT49/16 chart of possessive suffixes. Beneath the “normal” 3rd person possessives -rya, -lta, -sta associated with the 3rd person verb formations, there was another set, -ya, -rya, -twa mixed in with the “impersonal” verb formation.

[Personal] caris -rya carilte -lta cariste -sta
[Impersonal] care -ya carir -rya carit -twa

Since “impersonal” possessive suffixes don’t make a lot of sense, it seems likely that this row is another iteration on the colloquial possessives as suggested by the editor of the article Patrick Wynne, but it is hard to say for sure.

It therefore seems that these “colloquial” 3rd person possessive suffixes were an enduring idea, with classical 3rd person possessives being -rya (singular) and -lta/-nta (plural) but colloquial forms becoming -ya (singular) and -rya (plural). The vast majority of Neo-Quenya writers treat -rya as singular, however. I would not use these colloquial forms in Neo-Quenya writing, but I would use -ya as the 3rd singular possessive suffix for consonantal nouns, since these consonantal forms date back to Old Quenya and were valid in both classical and “colloquial” Quenya.

Possessives and noun cases: The possessive suffixes are appended to the noun first, followed by any additional suffixes for case and number, using the same inflections as vocalic nouns:

In Quenya prayers from the 1950s, Tolkien experimented with putting the possessive suffix after the case suffix: rocindillomman “*from our debtors” = rocindi-llo-mma-n (VT43/20), sangiessemman “*in our necessities” = sangie-sse-mma-n (VT44/8). This seems to be a temporary idea perhaps limited to the late 1940s and early 1950s, and is seen in only one other place in the published corpus: ᴹQ. nóressella “in your land” = nóre-sse-lla (Quenya Verbal System, 1948, PE22/124). Since we have very few published possessives from the 1930s and 40s, however, it could be that possessives following the noun case was normal in the 1930s and 40s before switching order in the 50s.

Independent possessive pronouns: In addition to the pronominal possessive suffixes, Quenya has a set of independent possessive pronouns. We don’t have a full paradigm from Tolkien’s later writing, but the pattern from the attested forms seems clear:

The independent forms seem to be the independent pronouns + -nya, so that other forms would be *lyenya “your (polite)”, *venya “our (inclusive)”, etc. The forms ninya and menya match emphatic possessive forms from the Early Qenya Grammar (PE14/54), so perhaps these independent possessives were also emphatic in Tolkien’s later writing. Where they appear, they are used as adjectives, and in some examples they are declined like adjectives to agree in number with the noun: menye rohtar “*our trespasses” (VT43/19).

It has also become established Neo-Quenya practice to allow the use of these long possessives as pronouns, equivalent to English “mine, yours, theirs” and so forth: sina ninya, tana lyenya “this is mine, that is yours”. I believe this usage was first suggested in Helge Fauskanger’s Quenya Course (HFQC/Lesson 19). In this usage, presumably the possessive pronouns would be declined like nouns instead of adjectives.

There were a different set of independent possessive pronouns in the Quenya Verbal System of 1948:

Conceptual Development: There was a full possessive pronoun paradigm in the Early Qenya Grammar (EQG) from the 1920s, but they were prefixes instead of suffixes. Tolkien also gave a set of “emphatic” (longer) possessive adjectives, which functioned as adjectives following the noun (PE14/54):

Subject Possessive Emphatic
1st Person Singular ni nya- ninya
2nd Person Singular ke tya- ketya
3rd Person Singular (m.) hu hwa- ¹ (h)úva
3rd Person Singular (f.) hi hya- (h)íva ²
3rd Person Singular (n.) ha ha- (h)áva ²
1st Person Plural Exclusive me mea- menya
1st Person Plural Inclusive qe qea- qenya
2nd Person Plural le lea- lelya
3rd Person Plural (m.) tu tua- ¹ túva ¹
3rd Person Plural (f.) si sia- ¹ síva ¹
3rd Person Plural (n.) ta ta- ¹ táva ¹

¹ With variant forms omitted for brevity.

² In the original these were written — íva and — áva, with the “—” probably representing optional (h) as discussed by the editors, PE14/54 note #87.

The EQG non-emphatic forms seem to be the subject forms + (y)a, and the emphatic forms seem to involve reduplication in 1st and 2nd person, and addition of -va in 3rd person. The EQG variations are an indications that the Neo-Quenya practice of making long possessives by adding -nya to the independent pronoun may be oversimplified, but until we have more examples it is probably best not to speculate too much on what the long possessive forms might be.

We have scattered examples of possessives in the 1930s and 40s, but they all seem to follow the later pattern of using the subject suffixes with e > a: Q. -tta “his” vs. ᴹQ. ette “he (emphatic)” (PE22/118, 121), Q. -lla “your” vs. ᴹQ. -lle “you” (PE22/119; SD/47). In the 1950s and 60s we have two complete possessive paradigms (PE17/57, VT49/16), and in both charts the possessives match the subject suffixes with e > a, excluding only the aberrant 3rd singular and colloquial forms as discussed above.

Neo-Quenya: To summarize my recommendations for Neo-Quenya usage:

Putting my recommendations into a table:

First Person Singular -(i)nya “my”
Second Person Singular -(i)tya “your (familiar)”
Second Person Singular -(e)lya “your (polite)”
Third Person Singular -(r)ya “his, her, its” ¹
First Person Plural (inclusive) -(e)lva “our (inclusive)”
First Person Plural (exclusive) -(e)lma “our (exclusive)”
Second Person Plural -(e)lda “your (plural)”
Third Person Plural -(i)lta or -(i)nta “their” ²

¹ The vowel in parenthesis is the recommended joining vowel for consonantal nouns, with the exception for 3rd person singular where it is -rya with vocalic nouns and -ya with consonantal nouns.

² Your choice of third person plural possessive depends on your preference for the 3rd person plural suffix in general.

Examples (1st-sg-poss)
em(en)ya [← amil(lë)] ✧ VT47/26
emil(inya) [← amil(lë)] ✧ VT47/26
Atarinya [← atar¹] ✧ UT/186
Atarinya [← atar¹] ✧ UT/273
at(an)ya [← atar¹] ✧ VT47/26
atar(inya) [← atar¹] ✧ VT47/26
aurenya [← aurë] ✧ Minor-Doc/1955-CT
hinanya “my child” ← hina ✧ WJ/403
lambenya “my tongue” [← lambë] ✧ PE17/46
mastanya “my bread” [← masta] ✧ PE22/162
meldenya “*my friend” [← #meldë] ✧ VT49/40
meldonya “*my friend” [← #meldo] ✧ VT49/40
omentie(n)nya ← omen-tië(n) ✧ PE17/58
órenya “my heart” [← órë] ✧ VT41/11
ōrenya “my heart” [← órë] ✧ VT41/13
Tarinya [← tári] ✧ UT/179
tatanya [← #tata] ✧ UT/191
tyenya “dear kinsman, (lit.) my tye” ← tye ✧ VT49/51
hinya “my child” ← hinanya (1st-sg-poss) assimilated ✧ WJ/403
Hildinyar “my heirs” [← #hildë] plural ✧ LotR/967
Hildinyar “my heirs” ← hildi plural ✧ PE17/103
hildinyar [← #hildë] plural ✧ PE22/147

Examples (2nd-sg-polite-poss)
aranielya “*thy kingdom” [← #aranië] ✧ VT43/15
túrindielya “*thy kingdom” [← #túrindië] ✧ VT43/15
turindielya “*thy kingdom” [← #túrindië] ✧ VT43/15
turinastalya “*thy kingdom” [← #túrinasta] ✧ VT43/15
túrinastalya “*thy kingdom” [← #túrinasta] ✧ VT43/15
esselya “*thy name” [← essë¹] ✧ VT43/14
indómelya “*thy will” [← indómë] ✧ VT43/16
mendelya “*thy will” [← #mendë] ✧ VT43/15
onnalya “*your child” [← onna] ✧ VT49/42
Vanimalda “thou beautiful” [← vanimalda] ✧ PE17/190
vanimalda [← vanimalda] ✧ WJ/369
Ortírielyanne [← #ortírië] allative ✧ VT44/5
Ortírielyanna “*to thy patronage” [← #ortírië] allative ✧ VT44/7
parma-restalyanna “*upon your book-fair” [← #parma-resta] allative ✧ VT49/39
restalyanna [← resta] allative ✧ VT49/39
tielyanna “upon your path” [← tië] allative ✧ UT/22
mónalyo “*of thy womb” [← #móna] genitive ✧ VT43/31
carvalyo “*of thy womb” [← #carva] genitive ✧ VT43/31
karitalya(s) “your doing (it)” [← car-] particular-infinitive with-sg-object ✧ PE22/154
karitalya(s) “your doing (it)” [← car-] particular-infinitive with-sg-object ✧ VT41/17
karitalya(s) “your doing (it)” [← car-] particular-infinitive with-sg-object ✧ VT42/33

Examples (3rd-sg-poss)
Aratarya “her sublimity” [← arata] ✧ WJ/369
Aratarya [← arata] ✧ WJI/Varda
kanwarya “*his face” [← #canwa²] ✧ VT49/21
köarya “the house of him” [← cöa] ✧ WJ/369
koivierya “*his/her life” [← coivië] ✧ VT49/42
mā-rya “her hand” ←  ✧ PE17/69
márya “his hand” [← ] ✧ PE22/160
makilya “his (or their) sword” [← macil] ✧ PE17/130
ōma-rya “her voice” ← óma ✧ PE17/67
talya “his foot” [← tál] ✧ PE17/130
talya “his foot” ← tāl ✧ VT49/17
koaryanna “his house” [← cöa] allative ✧ VT49/23
híniryannar “*to his children” [← hína] allative plural ✧ VT44/33
kambeya “his hand” [← #cambë] colloquial-possessive ✧ VT49/17
yulmaya “his cup” [← yulma] colloquial-possessive ✧ VT49/17
híniryan “*to his children” [← hína] dative plural ✧ VT44/33
máryat “her hands” [← ] dual ✧ LotR/377
máryat “her two hands” ←  dual ✧ PE17/69
mārya-t “her (two) hands” ← mā-rya (3rd-sg-poss) dual ✧ PE17/69
má-rya-t “her two hands” [← ] dual ✧ PE17/130
má-rya-t “her two hands” [← ] dual ✧ PE17/135
mā́ryat “her hands” [← ] dual ✧ RGEO/58
mā-rya-t “hands-her-two” [← ] dual ✧ RGEO/59
má-ya-t “her two hands” [← ] dual colloquial-possessive ✧ PE17/130
ómaryo “of her voice” [← óma] genitive ✧ LotR/377
ōmaryō “of her voice” ← óma genitive ✧ PE17/67
ómaryo [← óma] genitive ✧ PE17/76
ómaryo [← óma] genitive ✧ PM/364
ṑmáryo “of her voice” [← óma] genitive ✧ RGEO/58
ōma-ryo “voice-hers” [← óma] genitive ✧ RGEO/59
óma-yo “of her voice” [← óma] genitive colloquial-possessive ✧ PE17/130
lintieryanen “with his speed” [← lintië] instrumental ✧ PE17/58
lintiĕrya(nen) “with his swiftness” ← lintie instrumental ✧ PE17/59
súmaryasse “in her ... bosom” ← súma locative ✧ MC/222

Examples (1st-pl-exclusive-poss)
Ataremma “*Our Father” [← atar¹] ✧ VT43/13
Átaremma “*Our Father” [← atar¹] ✧ VT43/13
massamma “*our bread” [← #massa] ✧ VT43/18
mastamma “*our bread” [← masta] ✧ VT43/18
Mélamarimma “Our Home” ← mélamar ✧ PE17/109
rocindillomman “*[from our] debtors, those who trespasses” [← #rocindë] ablative plural possessive-second ✧ VT43/20
rucindillomman “*[from our] debtors, those who trespasses” [← #rocindë] ablative plural possessive-second ✧ VT43/20
lucandollommar [← #lucindo] ablative plural possessive-second ✧ VT43/20
lucindillomman [← #lucindo] ablative plural possessive-second ✧ VT43/20
fíriemmo “*of our death” [← fírië] genitive ✧ VT43/34
effíriemmo “*of our death” [← fírië] genitive ✧ VT43/34
omentielmo [← omentië] genitive ✧ PE17/130
omentielmo [← omentië] genitive ✧ PE17/131
sangiessemman “*in our necessities” [← #sangië] locative plural possessive-second ✧ VT44/8
arca·ndemmar “*our petitions” [← #arcandë] plural ✧ VT44/8
anarcandemman [← #arcandë] plural ✧ VT44/8
mastammar “*our bread” [← masta] plural ✧ VT43/11
rohtammar “*our debts, our trespasses” [← #rohta] plural ✧ VT43/19
luhtammar “*our debts, our trespasses” [← #luhta] plural ✧ VT43/19
luciemmar “*our debts, our trespasses” [← #lucië] plural ✧ VT43/19
lucassemmar “*our debts, our trespasses” [← #lucassë] plural ✧ VT43/19
úcaremmar “*our debts, our trespasses” [← #úcarë] plural ✧ VT43/19

Examples (1st-pl-inclusive-poss)
marielma ← márie ✧ PE17/59
omentie(n)lma ← omen-tië(n) ✧ PE17/58
omentielmo “of our meeting” [← omentië] genitive ✧ Let/265
omentielvo [← omentië] genitive ✧ Let/425
omentielmo “of our meeting” [← omentië] genitive ✧ Let/447
omentielvo “of our meeting” [← omentië] genitive ✧ Let/447
omentielvo “of our meeting” [← omentië] genitive ✧ LotR/81
omentielmo “of the meeting of you and me/us” [← omentië] genitive ✧ PE17/13
omentielvo [← omentië] genitive ✧ PE17/131
omentielmo [← omentië] genitive ✧ RC/90
omentielvo [← omentië] genitive ✧ RC/90
omentielvo “of the meeting of our ways” ← o-mentie genitive ✧ WJ/367
omentielmo [← omentië] genitive ✧ WJ/417

Examples (2nd-pl-poss)
Meletyalda “your mighty” [← melehta] ✧ WJ/369
onnalda “*your child” [← onna] ✧ VT49/42
veryanweldo “*of your wedding” ← veryanwe genitive ✧ VT49/45

Examples (3rd-pl-poss)
lintienta “their speed” ← lintie ✧ PE17/58
mánta “their hand, their hands (one each)” ←  ✧ PE17/161
mántat “their hands (each both)” ←  dual ✧ PE17/161
má-rya-t “*their two hands” [← ] dual colloquial-possessive ✧ PE17/130
símaryasse “connexions” [← síma] locative colloquial-possessive ✧ VT49/16
símaryassen “in their imaginations” [← síma] locative plural colloquial-possessive ✧ VT49/16
nassentar “their true-being” [← nassë] plural ✧ PE17/174
nassentar “their true-being” [← nassë] plural ✧ PE17/175
mánte ←  plural irregular ✧ PE17/161

Examples (2nd-dual-poss)
parmastanna “on your (dual, of you both) book” [← parma] allative ✧ VT49/47
tengwiesto “of your (dual, of you both) reading” [← #tengwië] genitive ✧ VT49/47
veryanwesto “*of your wedding” ← veryanwe genitive ✧ VT49/45

Reference ✧ WJ/369 ✧ for example: Varda Aratarya “Varda the lofty, Varda in her sublimity”, Aran Meletyalda “king your mighty”, Arwen vanimalda, namárië!

Element In

ᴹQ. possessive pronouns grammar.

Examples (1st-sg-poss)
Anarinya “my Sun” [← Anar] ✧ LR/72
Atarinya “my father” [← atar] ✧ LR/61
yonya “my son” [← yondo] ✧ LR/61
hildinyar “my heirs” [← #hilde] plural ✧ SD/56

Examples (2nd-sg-polite-poss)
atarella “your father” [← atar] ✧ PE22/119
nóressella “in your land” [← nóre] locative possessive-second ✧ PE22/124

Examples (3rd-sg-poss)
ataretta “his father” [← atar] ✧ PE22/118
matietta “a kind of eating, or style of eating, peculiar to him” [← #matie] ✧ PE22/119

Examples (1st-pl-exclusive-poss)
omentiemman “upon our meeting” [← omentie] dative ✧ PE17/14

Examples (1st-pl-inclusive-poss)
omentienwa [← omentie] ✧ PE17/14
omentienwan “of our meeting” [← omentie] dative ✧ PE17/14
omentielwan “of our meeting” [← omentie] dative ✧ PE17/14
omentiemman “of our meeting” [← omentie] genitive ✧ RS/324
kariemma “our doing” [← kar-] gerund ✧ PE17/14

Reference ✧ PE22/119

Element In

ᴱQ. possessive pronouns grammar.

Reference ✧ PE14/54

Element In